The Role of Empathy in User-Centric Design

Tristan Salvanera Human Reviewed Transcript

Intro - 00: 00:01: Welcome to Beyond the Screen: An IONOS Podcast, where we share insights and tips to help you scale your business's online presence. Hosting genuine conversations with the best in the web and IT industry and exploring how the IONOS brand can help professionals and customers with their hosting and cloud issues. I'm your host, Joe Nash.

Joe - 00: 00:21: Welcome to another episode of Beyond the Screen: An IONOS Podcast. Today, we're thrilled to host an individual whose portfolio is a fascinating intersection of UX design, e-commerce solutions, and cross-sector collaboration. We have with us Tristan Salvanera, the lead UX designer at Bourne Group, a digital agency specializing in creating compelling Salesforce by flow experiences aimed at maximizing sales potential and ROI. With a background that spans work with tech giants like AT&T, Salesforce, and Deloitte, Tristan brings to the table a multifaceted understanding of user-centered design and its critical role in digital transformation. Whether you're in the tech industry, leading a business, or just eager to learn about the nuances of UX design, today's conversation promises to be packed with deep insights and actionable takeaways. Tristan, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Tristan - 00: 01:07: Thanks so much, Joe. Happy to be here. Pleasure. Thanks for having me on the show.

Joe - 00: 01:10: Yeah, absolutely. I was saying to you just before we started that we've had a run of UX guests recently, which for me is very exciting because it's an area that I'm getting a real crash course from our very own knowledgeable guests this past week. So yeah, it's great to have you with us with a new set of UX experiences and facets for our listeners. This dive right into your particular journey. So, you know, you're a lead UX designer now you're specialising in kind of e-commerce solutions, working at company that specialises in e-commerce solutions. Could you walk us through, you know, how you got there, what your professional journey has been and some of the moments that have been pivotal in that journey?

Tristan - 00: 01:42: Yeah, sure, Joe. It's funny that I bring this up now because I'm actually on the event of trying to apply for a fellowship, maybe moving back into government and to form service actually, interestingly enough. But I was talking to a scholarship director and mentor of mine yesterday. But honestly, it's an interesting thread because I remember having to explain this in some of my interviews, even at a HaveGrow interview, because I have a huge toy collector.

Joe - 00: 02:04: Yes, imagine the gathering UX going on. That'd be great.

Tristan - 00: 02:07: Yeah, so they asked me, how did you go from higher education, administration and government to having English education abroad for so long and then moving into tech? And I said, ultimately, the thread that pulls it all together is the empathy for others, right? And so I think what really brought me into the UX space was when I spent the pandemic in Kyoto, Japan, while I was English teaching, a friend of mine actually introduced me to learning experience design. He actually chatted out to me and said, hey, you've always been wanting to be in tech. And so I said, how do I move from having had a background in business school and sales and all of these other things and then English education, and then having something so tangible and something very technical? And so luckily with the advent of online learning, even prior to pandemic, he gave me access to his Udemy course. And I started just kind of like diving deep into learning experience design. And then all of a sudden I found that underneath the bigger umbrella of UX design. So while I had already gone ahead and decided to take a UX bootcamp since that was what I could afford. And it's funny, I thought about the transition even prior to pandemic. I think a lot of people moved into the space during the pandemic, of course, because of the option, the flexibility of it all, right? And so I had done it in like October of like 2020 prior to any of this pandemic stuff happening, right? And so it just kind of was like serendipitous in that moment. And then while I was teaching a second time in Japan, I started learning about some of the tools in the trade of UX. Figma was just getting big, I guess, at the time when I was there, it was like Sketch or Figma, right? And then I started using some of it in my own classroom to try to incorporate what I was learning, even trying to get some of my students to use the design tools in their English language education. And so using those and because I knew that it was gonna be beneficial for portfolio and just kind of like a diverse broad sense of UX, I kind of leveraged that experience. And then I just got really lucky in having, again, the power of networking through LinkedIn, as we know, we've been able to connect is that a friend of mine from the government approached me with an opportunity to do a business tech analyst role at Deloitte. It was a contract position. And ultimately I realized business analyst is really a generalist for anything. And it's kind of the UX generalist in that sense. And so I got introduced to doing Salesforce that way, as well as real hands-on as opposed to the bootcamp, and then leverage that experience. And then thus working for Born Group, because the project I'm currently working on has three different teams working on it, which is AT&T as the client, Salesforce, and then Deloitte. So it was kind of like this happenstance of things. And I think that has continued to snowball me forward. And as I'm looking for other opportunities, like hopefully leveraging those along with my background in maybe non-traditional UX that would be beneficial to other clientele who maybe are looking for someone who has a more diverse problem solving, not through the traditional method of UX.

Joe - 00: 05:08: Yeah, that's awesome. Coming into it via the English language teaching in Japan, that's a spectacular place to spend the pandemic and B that's just like, I mean, at least based on the conversations we've been having here on the show that like UX really at the moment or whether it's just a present moment, or as you say, just a pandemic, UX has really afforded some interesting, like it seems like it's allowing real diversity of backgrounds, like there's lots of paths into like what is such a growing field and that's yet another new and interesting one to list. So you mentioned that, you know, some of the big clients that you're working with and that they span all these different industries and verticals. Across those projects, are there any key projects or collaborations from those clients that have really played an impact in shaping how you view the role of UX design in today's digital landscape?

Tristan - 00: 05:53: Hmm, that's an interesting one. I would say mostly my current project now, it's a huge one and it's a huge overhaul of an entire byflow system for AT&T. And so I think a lot of the work that I've been doing is moving people from a legacy system. So maybe something that's been outdated and because of maybe the new CRMs that we have, more updated interfaces that we can have for a changing landscape of users, the current projects of moving something from an old system to something that is new, such as for example, Salesforce, which has been mostly my projects has been one of the biggest challenges for people who perhaps one haven't really delved deep into what the capabilities of the new system could be. To having kind of that mentality of what the historical perspective of how you approach a problem. So for example, if something is done one way in this system, and then here is another way that they're doing it here, you only know this way, so you're going to try to make that same system there. But then if there's others who know the system better or have had the curiosity to understand what the new product can do, you wouldn't want to approach the same solution with the same tools, right? If you have new tools. And then the third thing I would say is just people who really have the curiosity to understand the diversity of what user experience is, because I think that's something that I've kind of come to find as someone who is still, I also can include myself, Mason in the field is that UX, UI, product design, I think it all kind of, everyone believes it to be synonymous and someone coming from never that kind of background beforehand. I really wanted to delve deep in saying like, yes, they do all cross intersect, but I call it ESID, every situation is different. So that in that sense that you cannot apply the same definition across every solution, I think that's a really big challenge that we have sometimes is that someone will ask for the UX, right? Which is something like my manager will do, but they really are requiring wanting the UI. It's the bit of the communication that we find that is troubling whenever people aren't on the same page. And I think that's the bigger challenge whenever any of these larger projects, because they could all be saying the same thing, like, let me see the UX, but they all could be meaning something different.

Joe - 00: 08:02: So do you think that that, I don't want to say misunderstanding if it's a bit over-setting it, but like…

Tristan - 00: 08:06: I think miscommunication.

Joe - 00: 08:02: Miscommunication is good. What would be your advice for managing up in that situation? Like for people who are in your position, who are getting kind of a similar thing where, you know, someone's coming in asking for the UX and you discover they're asking for the UI, how would you advise them to, you know, help the asker out in that situation and help them communicate that better to ultimately get what they want faster?

Tristan - 00: 08:29: So I think I rely back on the tool kits that I had as a teacher. That's actually where I always fall back on is that like, how is the student that I'm trying to teach able to learn? Like I used to do with my students, like, oh, you're interested in K-pop, so let me do it English through that way. It sounds so simple, but at the end of the day, it's like, I do it with the same with one of my co-designers on my team, teaching auto layout, for example, because I wanted her to work smart and not work hard, you know, I knew that she's quite shy and so I said, Hey, let me take time out. We'll put in my calendar. We'll go through the project together and I'll teach you and how do you learn best? And so that's how I kind of ask them. And so I guess it's a bit of the having the EQ to understand how different players are asking for certain things. And it does come with experience, right? So you can't apply the same blanket statement of how you're going to teach everyone. Sometimes it's like, okay, I'm trying to understand how you understand best. So I'm going to, this is, I'm trying to understand the ask, but at the same time, it's also having the confidence of where a little bit of pushback and saying like, I get what you're asking for. What's the end goal, right? Like what's the actual like value add actually at the end of the day, because I could provide you a nice, pretty, bell and whistles. But at the same time, would you want me to spend more time on that versus the thing that maybe is the real value add here? So it's challenging compensation depending on, like you said, managing up and talking to. But I like to think of it at the same time. And I try to do this across the team, which is whether it be Deloitte and whatnot, is that having it like a flat structure, even though with these larger organizations, there can be the hierarchical landscape. But I really, really try to make it so that it's like, hey, I may be a lead or UX designer here, but titles are titles and I will treat you the same way. And we're all working on the same kind of basis. And I think that that's fortunate to have with some of the project managers and senior project managers that I've been able to work with, because then at that point, it's collaborative, right? As opposed to just commanding.

Joe - 00: 10:20: Yeah, I think that's especially important with a client relationship of any kind. It's hard to get that real like team collaboration feeling sometimes.

Tristan - 00: 10:28: And you know, it's tough because if you're having a client, which I'm finding with some of the partners that we have, and maybe cultural things too, right? So the people don't realize that either. So like we have teams that are coming from India, coming from Mexico, of course the US and whatnot. And so seeing that the communication, there's already another barrier to it because of the language, for example, or the culture. So perhaps the team in Mexico is less likely to push back because they just want to maintain that client. Even though it's not best for what the client asks, in business they always say like, customer always gets it right. But I'm just like, that's not always the case. And if they're real, I mean, that's really not the way it is. And so I brought that up at the end of the day and I harp on it. And I think it's really true here now in these projects where it's like, do you want to pay for good research and data-driven UX and design for the user? Or do you want something just because it's the way that it was beforehand and then you're going to pay for it after the fact, right? It's the same way when you would think about with your health, like, do you want to eat that burger now, pay for doctor bills later, or do you want to actually like proactivity versus reactivity? Yeah, absolutely.

Joe - 00: 11:31: Awesome. Yeah, that's really insightful and a really actionable piece of advice for folks navigating this weird blend of topics. You mentioned UX research there and the importance of it for the work you're doing for the clients. So I want to dig into some of the individual topics around UX research and how you go about that there. So I think let's start with usability testing. So there's lots of ways that UX researchers and UX designers go about testing how usable their designs are, how useful the applications are to get a good insight into user behaviour with that particular application or that particular project. What are some of the methods that you've employed in your projects and are there any that you're particularly excited about?

Tristan - 00: 12:08: We've had a few whenever in my last project in Deloitte. I think it's been quite challenging to do usability testing in this particular one for the client because of the fact that I guess maybe they just didn't have prior data beforehand. And it's a chicken and an egg situation where it's like we're using new designs to be able to test. Right. So it is a bit slow going in that sense. But.

Joe - 00: 12:28: You have no bass line, you are making the bass line, right?

Tristan - 00: 12:30: I am making literally the baseline. When I created one of the features and epics that I had, I remember asking them, I was like, hey, do you have user data for this? And they were like, oh, we're actually gonna be using your work for to do the user data. And I said, well, that's interesting because I think that's quite expensive. But I think if that's the way you wanna do things.

Joe - 00: 12:47: They're already coding in at least another iteration, but at least they're cognizant of that. You're not going in with them thinking that you're about to provide the next data-driven iteration. They know that there's gonna be an initial step for it.

Tristan - 00: 12:58: Well, it's funny, but when I push back on the user that we had for this particular project, our customer reps for AT&T. And so I said, hey, let's be realistic here. How often do you actually pick up your phone if it's a number you don't recognize for the particular use case that we had? And he's like, oh, no, our agents are getting like 90% connection. And I said, really? I said, your agents are able to get through to people and yet you don't pick up your phone for somebody who you don't recognize? That doesn't track. But of course, there's no data to prove it. And so, you know, having to create a hybrid solution in that sense. But what I would say in terms of usability testing that was most pivotal in my previous role was having really well-written user stories or use cases, especially if you have AB testing, right? Like that's something that's something so simple that I do harp on now. It's always like, have at least two to three different iterations of what you think are great solutions. You may have the best one you think possible. And having those play out and then, of course, having a larger, if you can, a larger data set base because of the fact that will more than likely reiterate the foundation for your solution, right? Like that's what we're asking for. And so we're hoping we're getting more AD testing like before all of this rolls out. Deloitte has been asking for it on their side. But that's what I got to say is that like having definitive use cases that will help shift accordingly. I think that's the hardest part at the end of the day is when do you say, OK, here's where we put a pin at the moment and then say, test this. So that way the next enhancement or the next thing that we do shifts accordingly. That little gray area is really hard to define because ultimately scope creep comes in and then it's like you almost lose sight of like what you were doing in the first place. And I'm kind of realizing that now even more so, you know, with this time working on climate at Deloitte and as well as here at BORN, that there's just a large amount of scope creep. Sometimes I make a pinpoint being like, this is where we started. How did we get here? And sometimes I just got to call it out. So, yeah, I think at the end of the day, I'm going to always look back to like if we can get usability testing, but unfortunately not all timelines allow for it.

Joe - 00: 15:05: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So on A-B testing, you know, a very popular method, very popular topic. It seems it's really pierced public awareness. I even have like family members who are cognizant of the fact that they may be served different versions of a website to each other because they're now using services that are A-B testing. Being such a popular method and one that you're experienced with, are there any pitfalls or misconceptions in using A-B testing or deploying A-B testing that you think can produce some reliable or misleading data?

Tristan - 00: 15:31: Sure. I mean, I think at the end of the day, if it's really refined in what you're looking to test for, and also most likely to justify your hypothesis, right? It's almost like proving myself right. Okay, well, I think that if that users will go through this journey flow, and then you see that 86% or 80% of them do, then you're like, great, that defines everything. But then what can be the bigger issue, I'd say, on the converse side is that maybe you might not or your team or somebody else has missed something. And so that's almost like, in a way, it's almost like an accounting problem. If you miss one spot and you don't know where it is, you're looking for that one pitfall in the larger flow. So you're like, where did we miss? Like, what did we do? And what do we miss here? And so I think that could be the biggest pitfall if let's say the hypothesis isn't necessarily well written or like thought through. Additionally, what I would say is that with A-B testing, it's so easy to do, it's like left or right, black and white, right? So you're giving people only two options. But what I come to find is that users that we test, ultimately will come up with something else that maybe we hadn't thought about. And so then it just cascades and waterfalls into other things that this is what we discovered out of A-B testing. So maybe we need to go back and like, reconfigure to something else that might provide more options at the end of the day, because it's always like the same thing when somebody asks you, where do you want to go eat? Right? Like, oh, hey, I want to go to tacos or burgers. But then maybe you haven't taken that account to something on sushi. And so it's like, oh, wait a second. Like, we really do need to bring that in. And so maybe the whole A-B side of things wasn't the best test available for this. So I think it's obviously produced really very results in a really quick amount of time to be able to move forward. But at the same time, I think there are pitfalls from it, like any type of testing.

Joe - 00: 17:15: Sure, that absolutely makes sense. So jumping back to that other topic, you mentioned needing a reasonable amount of data about what users are doing, user behavior, user feedback. How do you go about gathering that data? And I guess like, what is your approach to the ever present topic of like the balance of quantitative to qualitative data?

Tristan - 00: 17:32: Well, so luckily with this project that we've had here, we do have like a CTX team so that we can essentially provide some of the hypotheses that we want to glean from them, but also that they're supporting in the sense of being able to add things that we might not have thought of, right? So then they conduct that sort of testing that we need or the hypothesis building that we have. But I wonder whether or not being so far removed from the actual behavioral testing and whatnot ultimately ends up diluting the data, right? Like I think there's nothing to be said better than, like for example, I'll give an example of my own personal usability testing when I was like English teaching and trying to formulate and design a new curriculum for my students. Nothing is better than getting in front of your users and then seeing how they do versus what they say. Like whether students were saying like, oh no, we're too shy or we don't know how to do their own thing. But then you see that in other certain scenarios they're not that shy. And so you kind of like glean in on that and you're like, okay, wait a second. Like that's something I can observe. So I think that's actually the benefit. And one thing that I would say is a challenge in larger scale organizations where it's that you have a lot of red tape to be able to even get to the actual user, right? Like I think I've met one user in the entire time and only because my lead project manager was able to like rally for it and saying, hey, can we just get like 10 minutes with one actual user to test this out and see what they do? And then that ultimately changed, okay, that solution wasn't the best one for them. And then you would think that getting more time like that would continue to help score for design. But ultimately with particularly our current user base it's like a huge turn. If you think about it with anybody, when you deal with customer reps or anything, it's such a huge turn. So that's also a challenge that you have itself because you have one user here, but they completely change because they've moved on from something else, right? So that's always the biggest challenge, but I would say that the more face time that anybody's able to make and making it quick so that way you can actually catch people in their actions is the best way to do usability testing.

Joe - 00: 19:38: Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. The churn of these you're dealing with is really interesting. Is that challenge there just about, you know, being able to follow up with people who are giving you insights previously? While you're seeing, like, as new people come in and old people go out, like, their needs actually evolving.

Tristan - 00: 19:51: Yeah, and that's the thing though, right? The tough part about it is that you have representatives who maybe have been here longer. And it's almost like Congress in America, right? Like you have people who are the voice for them, but nothing is better than actually meeting the constituents and like understanding what they're right. So even though the representative says this one way, if you really are a curious and analytical UX designer, you're going to question whether or not that's the truth and want to verify it. And so then getting in touch with whoever they're representing is actually what the bigger issue is because of that term. I mean, just a large scale difference in behavior, not to mention you wonder sometimes whether or not is it the user experience that you're really trying to do that is as intuitive? Or is it really a bigger issue of training? Or like how these people are trained and like, what value add is it? It's tough because you have to balance the two in the sense of where is the larger organization really focusing their efforts to make sure that there is a good return on investment.

Joe - 00: 20:46: Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Something that I mean, I at least often feel and I hear a little bit coming through in some of the US conversations we have is there's a balance between like, oh, a user said this and therefore we must do this. Like, you know, you need to work with that data to work out, you know, what the actual solution to that problem is. Cause the thing that they think is the solution is often not going to be the solution, right? Getting back to what you were saying about the customer not always being right. When it comes to moving on past the research phase into the implementation, when you know, you're starting to actually work on that design, starting iterate on that design. How do you balance the inherent creativity of UX and UX design and what you want to do with the data you have and the demands airing from the data you have? Like, how do you reconcile that? Like, oh, you know, this data set, we should clearly do this thing versus like, I'm applying my expertise to see that that may not necessarily be the case. Does that make sense?

Tristan - 00: 21:32: Going back to what you just actually harped on, it's like taking things at face value with a grain of salt. It's ultimately saying, like, oh, here's the problem set that we have. I'll give you an example right now. An experience that somehow got pulled in was putting images on particular cell phone plans. So imagine you're on the website, choosing a plan, right? Ultimately, our user or the customer reps, not actually you yourself. But for this purpose, yeah, let's say that. And so I see the reason why they want to do this, business value-wise. But then I push back and I say, how much effort is it going to take to do this? And what real return on investment are you going to get? Like, if I saw an image of some stock image, like there's no actual image of your wireless plan, right? Like, are you going to take a photo of me on the phone and like the next phone is like that? It's faster. Like, what are you really doing this for? So I think, you know, it's a pushback at times. It's like, do you want to actually include this for the purpose of the work? Or do we shift that work to something that actually is going to have tangible results? And so, like, I've had conversations like that beforehand where it's like, what's the real purpose? And some of the work that I've done has just been mixed only because of the fact that I'm saying, like, hey, I get why this was created. And maybe it's because you're just trying to show that we're making improvements. But like, it's not always about quantity as opposed to quality, right? Like, that's what I really wanted to focus on. And so sometimes you do have to, like, bite your tongue and say, OK, I'll do this. Ultimately, because there's one thing to pay check, right? But I do say that there are ways to be able to leverage the systems that we have in place. That's the other thing as a UX designer is I think we have to think of creativity in a very broad sense, right? Like, some people may think of creativity as like, oh, well, I get to create this fully custom experience and whatnot. But I also challenge creativity in certain situations like what I have now, which is like we have to use with Salesforce components. We're kind of in a predefined constraints. The way I tell people about I think what's the exciting part about the job is that, like, I've been given a Lego set to build the Magic Kingdom, right? But the app is I'm now at the time to create the Batmobile. And so I think in that regards, it's exciting because it's like, how do you take the existing parts or whatever is available? I think that's the fun in it, right? Like working with, for example, if I get hit with something, I said, oh, I've never had this before. Let me do my research and my best practices tool and reach out to the UX designers on AT&T, at Salesforce, at Deloitte. Gather as much information as what I can have. Confirm that there hasn't been an experience like this before, but then provide it in a way that is similar to something else. And that really tracks with saying, hey, look, I'm not creating something new. I'm not making more extra work, but I'm actually creating an experience from existing parts. So that's a kind of the eureka moment that people really care for. And then that's how we're able to shop the solution around with stakeholders and say, OK, I got buy in. Here's buy in, here's buy in. And then you see something like really fruitful out of all that work.

Joe - 00: 24:23: Excellent. Well, you've led me beautifully into a topic that we did want to cover today, which is the cross-departmental collaboration and the nature of UX being so tied in to so many business functions and that being quite an almost unique property of UX. So you've spoken earlier in the show about communicating kind of up and down the chain, I guess, like your immediate periphery and some, you know, there you mentioned stakeholders. How do you go about facilitating effective communication between all these different stakeholders, whether that's, you know, design, development, business teams? How do you make that huge mess of communication work?

Tristan - 00: 24:56: Well, I like to think of it as like my meetings are 30 minutes or less. I try to stick by that. Sometimes they go over 10 minutes, but again, I'd like to look back at my education days and stuff and imagine you being in university. No class or attention is ever held past 45 minutes or 50 minutes, right? Despite the fact that we have this type of meetings that are here. And so one thing that I have noticed in the advent of remote work is that you lose so much to non-verbal communication with just messaging on Teams or Slack. And a lot of miscommunication happens that way. So what I've facilitated with, whether it be my LPM or another fellow designer or even I say, hey, look, do you need a little bit of time out that I can block for you or I'll block out some time in yours? We'll discuss it. So the ask is actually there. And then depending on the comfortability of people is having the video on. Right. And I'm always a proponent of that. I've actually wanted that. It's not so much with a client here, maybe because they just don't feel that way. But I think that taking the time out of your day and explaining the ask, especially in a non-verbal way, in the advent of remote work really helps to clarify those asks and those needs and then providing the solution. It's good for the UX designer at the end of the day, right? The more time you're able to present a huge part of this job, the storytelling they tell you, right? Like if you're not able to go from point A to point B to the end and provide things that are useful for whoever you're speaking to, then you really haven't done your job. So that's kind of what I do. And luckily, like the person who prior to her leaving, who was like my boss's boss, she was really open to having anybody, despite the hierarchy, reach out to her. Those are really great. If you have leaders like that, if you don't have leaders like that, then it's a little bit more of a how do you get through the red tape of like getting your five minutes in, right?

Joe - 00: 26:46: Yeah, I think that's a really good idea and a very insightful point, especially when you're working in a very cross-functional environment, the people you're asking things of, if you're asking someone in business development to have a look at some designs or whatever, they are almost stepping out of their normal flow of work to engage with you. So defensibility of that time becomes a huge issue. They have members of their team and their normal work trying to put meetings on their calendar. And so even if, as you say, it's not a meeting, but you're blocking that time for them to think about that, that makes it time that they can dedicate to that that is defensible. So yeah, I think that's a really great idea to navigate both cross-functional collaboration at large, but also these particularly new for many people remote working times. I think that's really interesting.

Tristan - 00: 27:29: I think it's also to your point, what you said is just like having people feel that they're important at the end of the day, right? Or have a vested stake into it. So you brought up business development because in this current project, I'm in now with my lead project manager, myself and a business development rep at moments where we have to go through presenting to different clients, we are all in there or somebody will hit me up and say, I need to go over this. Could you explain it? I'll bring them into the mix. And hopefully, by the fact that we're all kind of vested in this for whatever reason that we're in, they all seem to still join the meeting despite the fact that maybe they only need like two seconds in, right? And I think that really shows the teamwork and the collaboration that we need because we've all been able to feel that we have a vested stake in it and feel the importance of the work. In other projects that I've been where it's like, oh, you just happen to be the UX designer, can you just go and present this? And then, you know, I'm the lone one and I'm this team. It feels like you're in a silo and then you have nobody on your team. But I think at the end of the day, it's a communication of being like, hey, did I miss something, Lucas? And then he'll jump in and say, oh, yeah, that's a really good point. And so I think that's the thing is that is if you're able to have people have their input shown in the work and have the best of interest, then of course, they're going to want to say that this is also my baby, right?

Joe - 00: 28:42: Right, right. Yeah. Well, on the topic of being able to keep people's attention for only about 30 minutes, dear listener, we do see you. So as we get towards the end of our time here, I want to ask you, Tristan, through all the journey and the experience you've done, you've got your UX experience from some really interesting sources and ways. What wisdom would you offer to aspiring or UX scientists starting out? What is your one piece of advice for, you know, penetrating this field and really making a name for themselves and being able to find a role that they can be happy and excellent?

Tristan - 00: 29:08: I would say the one piece of advice for anyone would just stay curious. I think the curiosity in understanding the different techniques, curiosity in being able to connect your previous experiences to something else. A lot of the people who have transitioned into this that do really well are people who are in the healthcare field, education, all these non-traditional roles. And I think what I've found in some of the people that I've mentored or some of the people who have reached out to me is that like, how do I transform my time working in the emergency room into something like this? And I said, well, you know, you're curious asking in that sense, but two, delve deeper in saying like, how do you get into the mind frame of seeing what the overall picture is and how do you help benefit that, right? I tell people like UX isn't just the digital expanse, right? Like look at the omnichannel experience that Disney has, you know, from the point that you start from ticket entry all the way through and rides and whatnot. It is an experience. And I think if people are curious enough to have that lens of saying like, how can I help this? And it's only through time that you get that, right? Like my wife has actually has transitioned from teaching little kindergarten kids in Tokyo to now she's an instructional designer, Salesforce work actually. You know, through time you start being more aware of things that like, hey, that didn't work out really well. Then why is that that way, right? But the initial thing of it all is curiosity, right? Like anyone curious enough in this field will find a place. I've said that myself, like I've met some great people. I've had some experiences that were disappointing. Like I'll say it now, like one of the things that I was so heartbroken about was I was like a finalist for the Google UX apprenticeship when they first started it and I didn't get it. I made it to the final round, spent two hours in the evening, like interviewing, but the preparation for that as well as the interview itself helped me forward to these other roles, right? And I think taking those disappointments and staying curious about like, how can they benefit you will get you a place in this huge expanding like UX space.

Joe - 00: 31:01: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's very insightful. I particularly like the point you make about UX not just being the digital. I think it was the lecturer for my university course where we did the UX module was always very big on hall and push handles on doors. That was the metaphor they always went for, the UX thing of like, oh, it's a push door, but it has a handle. And that being confusing.

Tristan - 00: 31:20: Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up because in Japan, when I was living, I remember it's so different from America where it's like most doors push out. But in Japan, a lot of pull in and I said, wait, isn't this a fire hazard? It's like nobody really thought about that. But depending on the landscape, who knows?

Joe - 00: 31:36: Well, I think that is a wonderful place to wrap up. Thank you so much Tristan for your time today.

Tristan - 00: 31:41: No, thanks so much. I appreciate you.

Outro - 00: 31:44: Beyond the Screen: An IONOS Podcast. To find out more about IONOS and how we're the go-to source for cutting-edge solutions and web development, visit ionos.com and then make sure to search for IONOS in Apple podcasts, Spotify and Google podcasts, or anywhere else podcasts are found. Don't forget to click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. On behalf of the team here at Ionos, thanks for listening.